Curse

reaper with no name · Aug 30, 2010, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Should keep the crip for PvP though, it's good there.

Actually, I'd bring the recharge down to about 10 or so. This allows you to use it to recharge skills every 10 seconds, which is not the same as "infinite spamming". Being able to use it to get more unblockable strikes is, in my opinion, a valid use. I myself would probably just use it to recharge Heart of Fury .

Disagree. If they do that, every other class would want a new elite too, and they'd just get something more powerful than the Derv. Instead, this effect should just be added to the Derv dance.

More seriously though, I've been thinking about Reaper's Sweep. How about:
20nrg, 10 recharge.
Elite scythe attack. Lose all your enchantments. Hits for +x..y.z damage and causes Deep Wound. If you targeted a foe with less than 50% HP, all enchantments lost this way are re-applied.

Neither Assa nor Warrior could pay that much for an attack, but with 9+ Mysticism, a Derv could.

And here I thought people would like my dervish rap...

Well, fortunately, that Aura of Thorns idea is PvE-only.

A 10 second recharge is too long for an enchantment intended for removal. Long recharge times mean a skill is reserved for spiking, but spiking takes a backseat to sustained dps (ie, spam) in PvE. If we want enchantment juggling to be more effective, then the enchantments are going to have to be spammable, unless their spiking potential is so insane it gets us one-hit kills (which I consider a bad idea).

Permanent unblockability would not matter in PvE, sure. But I was referring to PvP with that comment. But, yeah, I suppose I could make Guiding Hands better still. Maybe make it effect 0...4 attacks?

My first thought was that your Reaper's Sweep idea was useless because of the energy cost, but then I realized that it's because mysticism is supposed to recoup that loss. It's interesting and clever, to be sure (making a scythe attack gain energy via mysticism), but to be effective it will require one to have a lot of enchantments on them (which is not as likely in PvP as one would hope). Plus, even if one gets the energy back, they still need to have 20 energy to begin with to use it. On the other hand, if you decrease the energy costs, then there's the possibility that if someone does get enough enchantments, they could get a ton of energy out of this. So I can't really give much of an opinion other than "it's a cool idea, but I wish there was another way to do it that would make it's balance effects more clear". Sadly, right now the only modification I can think of to go about that would be to reduce the cost and make mysticism not trigger for the enchantments stripped by the skill. But that wouldn't work, because then other classes could afford to use the skill.

But, even if your idea was implemented as-is, and it didn't break anything, it would still not be much better than it currently is. You're still doing +dmg (for the purposes of this conversation I'm assuming it's the same amount as right now), and while the DW would be easier to apply, it would no longer remove an enchantment and would have a longer recharge.

Hmmm...How about...

Reaper's Sweep
10 energy, 8 recharge
Deals +(whatever it is now) damage and inflicts DW for (same as now) seconds. Removes 1 enchantment. If enemy is above 50% health, remove one of their enchantments. Otherwise, reapply the enchantment you lost.

No way warriors would be able to afford this. Assassins might be able to use it, but they'd have a harder time of it than dervishes I think (assuming Mysticism gets reverted, anyway).

More ideas:

Balthazar's Rage
5 energy, 1/4 activation, 15 recharge
All adjacent foes take 15...51 holy damage. For 20 seconds, each time you are healed, all adjacent foes take 5...17 holy damage.

Extend Enchantments
Instead of removing all enchantments on ending, just remove one.

Pious Fury
Increase IAS duration to 5...17 seconds.

fr.aodhan · Aug 30, 2010, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Balthazar's Rage
5 energy, 1/4 activation, 15 recharge
All adjacent foes take 15...51 holy damage. For 20 seconds, each time you are healed, all adjacent foes take 5...17 holy damage.

Eight Dervishes with Light of Deliverance, Heal Party, Divine Healing, and Heaven's Delight. That's a total of 32 healing spells cast. Since each hits 8 Dervishes, we have 256 heal procs. At 17 damage per, that's 4352 damage. Vigorous Spirit would help. Plus 408 from the initial damage. Mop up with Heal Area or Karei's, Healing Ring, Shield Guardian...

I know it would never happen, but I'd pay to watch. Fantastic.

Nechrond · Aug 31, 2010, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

And here I thought people would like my dervish rap...

Sure. I consider that part of the effect, to be added to the dance.

Quote:

But, even if your idea was implemented as-is, and it didn't break anything, it would still not be much better than it currently is.

I thought it might be used for Mystic Sandstorm hybrids. Get all your end-effects twice in a very short time-frame and still end up with full energy.

Quote:

Balthazar's Rage
5 energy, 1/4 activation, 15 recharge
All adjacent foes take 15...51 holy damage. For 20 seconds, each time you are healed, all adjacent foes take 5...17 holy damage.

Interesting, and not as broken as aodhan thinks. If you take up position adjacent to 8 enemy Dervishes, you deserve to die.

Quote:

Extend Enchantments
Instead of removing all enchantments on ending, just remove one.

I smell abuse. Perhaps, instead of removing all enchantments, it should just remove all non-Derv enchantments?

Quote:

Pious Fury
Increase IAS duration to 5...17 seconds.

5 seconds at attribute 0? I'd be using it on a hammer Warrior or an Assassin, not on a Derv. I see keep the low initial duration, but give it a full second per rank increase.

Hey, remember that idea for Pious Renewal I posted a few pages back? Couldn't we just make that an added inherent effect of Mysticism? You'd get:
Mysticism. Inherent effect: Whenever an enchantment ends on you, you gain 1 energy per 3 ranks, 1 health per rank, and you have 2% chance per rank to re-apply it (3% in PvE).
Yes, I know I'm pushing this whole re-apply thing a bit, but I really think it would be good, mainly because it would save you time. Time in which you can keep waving that scythe around instead of casting enchantments for meagre benefits.

Cuilan · Aug 31, 2010, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

AoHM needs to be tied into Mysticism. Full stop. Critical Agility is tied into Critical Strikes, so why the heck didn't they tie AoHM to Mysticism to begin with? That probably wouldn't completely solve the problem of scythe abuse by other professions, but it would go a long way to helping.

No, just no. So what will non-mysticism builds have to use then? It would be terrible for the dervish especially if it requires a high attribute.

fr.aodhan · Aug 31, 2010, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

Interesting, and not as broken as aodhan thinks. If you take up position adjacent to 8 enemy Dervishes, you deserve to die.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the skill - I think there's one very specific situation in which it could pump out hilarious damage, but, as I said, I don't think it'd happen.

saint666 · Aug 31, 2010, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Twin Moon Sweep
Scythe Mastery
Melee Attack
5e
2s recharge

If this attack hits, remove 1 dervish enchantment, if a dervish enchantment was remove this way, you attack again.

Aura Slicer
Scythe Mastery
Scythe Attack
5e
4s recharge

Deals +10...22...25 damage to target foe. If this attack hits remove 1 dervish enchantment. If a dervish enchantment was removed this way, adjacent foes take 20...44...50 damage.

Balthazar's Rage
Enchantment spell
Mysticism
10e
1/4s cast
30s recharge

For 30 seconds, your scythe attacks deal +1...15 damage and sets foes on fire for 1...3 seconds if you are under the effects of an other enchantment.

reaper with no name · Sep 01, 2010, 08:42 AM // 08:42

I like those ideas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

No, just no. So what will non-mysticism builds have to use then? It would be terrible for the dervish especially if it requires a high attribute.

As of right now, I can't think of any that are worth using (zealous vow builds that use HoF do a little bit more damage than those that don't). Making the useless more useless doesn't seem harmful to me.

Besides, if you aren't using a class's primary attribute, why play that class at all? The only other things that differentiate classes are armor and runes. In the dervish's case, neither of these offer any significant benefit. Armor and energy-wise, the dervish is not special, and the dervish doesn't possess the sorts of skills that gain disproportionate benefits with higher attribute ranks (spirits, minions, splinter weapon). Not tying AoHM to mysticism pretty much guarantees that at the very least, the assassin will be able to use the dervish's weapon better than it does (and likely the warrior as well).

Nechrond · Sep 01, 2010, 09:39 AM // 09:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Besides, if you aren't using a class's primary attribute, why play that class at all? The only other things that differentiate classes are armor and runes.

The other thing that sets Dervs apart from W/D and A/D is the ability to use skills that are not from W, A or D. A W/D or A/D can't use GftE, for example. Not that I disagree with tying AoHM to Mysticism (as long as it's for duration only), just wanted to point it out. It's a good thing to keep in mind when trying to come up with ideas to help the Derv.

No objections to my suggestion of giving Mysticism a chance to re-apply enchantments when they end?

Burjis · Sep 01, 2010, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verene

AoHM needs to be tied into Mysticism. Full stop. Critical Agility is tied into Critical Strikes, so why the heck didn't they tie AoHM to Mysticism to begin with? That probably wouldn't completely solve the problem of scythe abuse by other professions, but it would go a long way to helping.

This not only doesn't help the Dervish but it also nerfs it. Yeah it also nerfs the other melee professions using AoHM but the main point of a Dervish update is to improve this profession not nerf others. It might be good for Dervish builds that fully utilize mysticism but it also breaks all the other Dervish builds that don't rely too much on this attribute.
The same applies if they tie the effectiveness of the Scythe to Mysticism in any way (I'm not talking about "added" functionality).
Any build that relies on wind or earth or secondary profession attributes and holds a scythe would go directly into the trash can if they do anything like that and that means my favorite Dervish PvE Scythe builds will go with them.
And you should all remember: Dervish isn't just Mysticism.
Yeah improve Mysticism, I'd be happy. Add additional holy damage or increased attack speed to the scythe with more points in it, that would be awesome. Increase health gain bonus of this attribute, yeah that can do too. But make Scythes useless without 12 points in Mysticism you may as well remove Wind and Earth prayers from the game altogether. This will force Scythe users to put more and more points into mysticism, leaving no more points to be spent on other attributes that the Dervish might need.
I'd rather have no Dervish update than an update of this kind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Not tying AoHM to mysticism pretty much guarantees that at the very least, the assassin will be able to use the dervish's weapon better than it does (and likely the warrior as well).

I don't understand. Are you guys concerned about the Dervish profession not being as good as it should or just jealous (sorry for using this term) of other professions being able to use the Scythe as effective as the Dervish?
And look at the solution: Nerf the hell out of all the other professions using a scythe and if it means nerfing the Dervish along with them, then so be it!

The only solution is to "improve" Dervish builds using Mysticism not "nerf" Dervish builds that don't.

fr.aodhan · Sep 01, 2010, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

No objections to my suggestion of giving Mysticism a chance to re-apply enchantments when they end?

It depends on how powerful the effect is going to be, whether it includes all enchantments, and whether it includes enchantment stripping.

3,4, or 5%?

A little math: if your probability of reapplication is p, then the expected number of applications (including the first) is 1/(1-p). Fortunately, this gives us fairly pretty numbers - either 3,4, or 5% chance of renewal per level of Mysticism.

If you want three reapplications on average at Mysticism 15, then you need p = 3/4. You can accomplish this exactly with 0...60%...75%; i.e. 5% for every level of Mysticism. Then at Mysticism 12 you have 1.5 reapplications on average, and at Mysticism 6, .42 reapplications on average. This would make a high-Mysticism character pretty robust; e.g. stacking Faithful and Watchful Intervention, you would get about 8 Interventions for two casts.

If you want two reapplications on average at Mysticism 15, then you need p = 2/3. You can approximate this by 0...48...60%; i.e. 4% for every level of Mysticism. Then at Mysticism 12 you have .92 reapplications on average, and at Mysticism 6, about .31 reapplications on average. This seems a little more reasonable. Mysticism 12 means you renew each enchantment about once. Mysticism 6, that you renew one out of three enchantments.

3% per level of Mysticism seems a little low. At Mysticism 15, you get about .81 renewals. At 6, only about every one in five enchantments is renewed. You might as well drop the points in Mysticism and recast the enchantment yourself - Mysticism would be too unreliable to justify itself.

Other Questions

Now, to the other questions - does it include all enchantments? I can imagine builds right now that use Mysticism 15 solely for the purpose of fueling enchantments from other classes. I'm not sure spawning a new class of permanently enchanted immortals is a good idea.

Does it include strips? I would love this, because it would combine your idea of reapplication with the idea of stripping resist - the Dervish can be punished for being enchanted, but couldn't be so quickly reduced to enchantmentlessness.

Nechrond · Sep 01, 2010, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

3% per level of Mysticism seems a little low. At Mysticism 15, you get about .81 renewals. At 6, only about every one in five enchantments is renewed. You might as well drop the points in Mysticism and recast the enchantment yourself - Mysticism would be too unreliable to justify itself.

Other Questions

Now, to the other questions - does it include all enchantments? I can imagine builds right now that use Mysticism 15 solely for the purpose of fueling enchantments from other classes. I'm not sure spawning a new class of permanently enchanted immortals is a good idea.

Does it include strips? I would love this, because it would combine your idea of reapplication with the idea of stripping resist - the Dervish can be punished for being enchanted, but couldn't be so quickly reduced to enchantmentlessness.

And there I thought I was going to have to explain the mathematics to you guys myself. Thanks!

I'm going to answer your questions in reverse order:
-Yes, it would also include being stripped, saccing them, having an ally drop a bond - as long as it ended, one way or another, it would trigger.
-Yes, it would include all enchantments. I know the Pious Renewal idea said "non-elite" only, but that would have had way higher percentages. The percentage should be kept low here, because, like you said, permanently enchanted immortals are a bad idea.
-I'm suggesting 3% per rank for PvE and only 2% for PvP. This should be low enough that people can't make the above-mentioned immortals, but high enough to 1) give enchantment cycling some extra fuel, 2) make it a bit less easy to counter enchantment-based Dervishes, and 3) give the Derv much better energy management, because getting your enchantment twice for 1 cast also means getting the energy for having it end twice. And, okay, 4) allow you to run a rank of Myst that isn't a multiple of 3 without being laughed at.

Desert Rose · Sep 01, 2010, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

No objections to my suggestion of giving Mysticism a chance to re-apply enchantments when they end?

Haven't seen it the first time, but...
Adding even more prozent-based chances into the game is a very bad idea; you may win a losing battle because you were lucky that some enchantment re-applys itself over and over again, or lose even though you were superior because your enchantments simply did not re-apply themselves. For at least one of the parties the outcome is very frustrating and not fun at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burjis

I don't understand. Are you guys concerned about the Dervish profession not being as good as it should or just jealous (sorry for using this term) of other professions being able to use the Scythe as effective as the Dervish?

The whole reason why the Dervish is considered "bad" isn't because it's bad by itself (in fact, Dervish is one of the best PvE classes of the game), but because there's hardly any reason in terms of game mechanics to choose a Dervish over a Warrior or a Sin.

An old idea for AohM I've already suggested a long time ago, don't know if it already appeared here in this thread:

Aura of Holy Might
10, 3/4, 25
Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes take 40...48...50 holy damage. For 20 and 2 seconds for each rank of Mysticism, you deal 20...30...32% more damage with your scythe. Every time an enchantment ends on you while this enchantment is active you deal 1...2...2 holy damage for each rank of Mysticism to all nearby foes. When this enchantment ends, all nearby foes take 40...48...50 holy damage.

This change makes AohM better for pure scythe Dervish (they don't need to recast it as often and therefor have more time and energy to attack), and strengthen enchantment juggling and would give allies the ability to improve the damage of a Dervish in a way fitting for a Dervish.

fr.aodhan · Sep 01, 2010, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

-Yes, it would also include being stripped, saccing them, having an ally drop a bond - as long as it ended, one way or another, it would trigger.

With the caveat that you shouldn't be able to force an ally to reapply a bond, since you're adjusting their regeneration without their explicit permission, I think this would probably reinvigorate Dervish play, at least for me. There have been a number of times when I've been completely stripped in the middle of using a skill that requires an enchantment.

I understand that you should be able to shut down any sort of character, but this happens so often, even in PvE, that I really don't look forward to playing in any area with even minor enchant removal.

Quote:

I'm suggesting 3% per rank for PvE and only 2% for PvP. This should be low enough that people can't make the above-mentioned immortals, but high enough to 1) give enchantment cycling some extra fuel, 2) make it a bit less easy to counter enchantment-based Dervishes, and 3) give the Derv much better energy management, because getting your enchantment twice for 1 cast also means getting the energy for having it end twice. And, okay, 4) allow you to run a rank of Myst that isn't a multiple of 3 without being laughed at.

I'm a little wary of such low numbers for the reason that Desert Rose says. From where I sit, 15 points in an attribute should give me near certainty, if not simple certainty, that something is going to work. For this reason, I'd rather have higher probabilities and a restricted class of enchantments to which Mysticism would apply.

Nechrond · Sep 01, 2010, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

With the caveat that you shouldn't be able to force an ally to reapply a bond, since you're adjusting their regeneration without their explicit permission

Technically, you also adjust their regeneration without their permission when you sac a bond, but I see what you mean. Good point.

Quote:

I'm a little wary of such low numbers for the reason that Desert Rose says. From where I sit, 15 points in an attribute should give me near certainty, if not simple certainty, that something is going to work. For this reason, I'd rather have higher probabilities and a restricted class of enchantments to which Mysticism would apply.

But how would you restrict it? Near-certainty would make Faithful Intervention, which conveniently has the right attribute, a bit less than funny. With 45% re-application, if you're cycling enchantments, you have near-certainty that you won't run out of fuel soon, but you can't be certain WHICH enchantments you'll re-apply.

fr.aodhan · Sep 01, 2010, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Haven't seen it the first time, but... Adding even more prozent-based chances into the game is a very bad idea; you may win a losing battle because you were lucky that some enchantment re-applys itself over and over again, or lose even though you were superior because your enchantments simply did not re-apply themselves. For at least one of the parties the outcome is very frustrating and not fun at all.

I think this idea is already well-established in the game, though, and we've managed not to drown in angst. We have a number of block probability skills which can, for instance, completely muss up an assassin's attack chain, but in general, the assassin understands that you win some, lose some. If they cling at block probabilities and get angry, they would have done so anyway. I've personally never seen anybody get moany because Displacement triggered when it did, but that applies probabilistically to everyone in Fort Aspenwood.

The only alternative I see (alternative to scrapping the idea entirely, that is) is to link Mysticism to a internal renewal counter on each enchantment which decreases once per renew. There'd be no probability - everything would be deterministic.

Quote:

Every time an enchantment ends on you while this enchantment is active you deal 1...2...2 holy damage for each rank of Mysticism to all nearby foes.

This would be fantastic, especially if they were to fix the way in which Mystic Sandstorm removes enchantments seemingly out of order.

Verene · Sep 01, 2010, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

An old idea for AohM I've already suggested a long time ago, don't know if it already appeared here in this thread:

Aura of Holy Might
10, 3/4, 25
Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes take 40...48...50 holy damage. For 20 and 2 seconds for each rank of Mysticism, you deal 20...30...32% more damage with your scythe. Every time an enchantment ends on you while this enchantment is active you deal 1...2...2 holy damage for each rank of Mysticism to all nearby foes. When this enchantment ends, all nearby foes take 40...48...50 holy damage.

This change makes AohM better for pure scythe Dervish (they don't need to recast it as often and therefor have more time and energy to attack), and strengthen enchantment juggling and would give allies the ability to improve the damage of a Dervish in a way fitting for a Dervish.

This is the sort of thing for AoHM that I mean by tying it to Mysticism. Even a small investment in Mysticism would give a significant reward - just three points in it would make AoHM maintainable without an enchanting mod on your scythe, not to mention small bursts of extra damage. Not huge amounts, mind, but enough to make a difference, and give Dervishes an advantage with the skill.

And quite frankly, I don't see why people think you have to have 12 points in an attribute to make it worth using. You really don't. Just find the breakpoint you want for the skills you use and go with that - I only run Wind Prayers at 9 because that's the breakpoint on getting 5 energy back per hit on Zealous Vow.

And as for the reapplication idea, I think it's a good idea, but I'm not sure on the numbers. How about "You have a y% plus x% for each rank in Mysticism of reapplying an enchantment when it ends (maintainable enchantments will not reapply)"? I'm not sure if that'd be better or worse, really. It wouldn't require much investment for some chance of it, but it might not necessarily encourage high levels in Mysticism. I'm also not sure what numbers would be good ones to put in there.

fr.aodhan · Sep 01, 2010, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nechrond

But how would you restrict it? Near-certainty would make Faithful Intervention, which conveniently has the right attribute, a bit less than funny.

You could fix Faithful Enchantment so that, if the expected number of renewals is x, then the new Faithful Enchantment heals for (Old Faithful Enchantment / x). Better, you might simply set it so that Faithful Enchantment heals for a flat value, regardless of your Mysticism. Then, the new Faithful Enchantment usually heals for the same value as the old Faithful Enchantment but is renewed a number of times so that you do get the extra energy.

e.g. Faithful Enchantment heals for 30 if you drop below 50%. If you get 3 renewals, that's 4*30 = 120 total healing. If you only get the initial cast, that's 30 healing.

Nechrond · Sep 01, 2010, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr.aodhan

The only alternative I see (alternative to scrapping the idea entirely, that is) is to link Mysticism to a internal renewal counter on each enchantment which decreases once per renew. There'd be no probability - everything would be deterministic.

Well, you could give each enchantment 0.2 * Myst rank "extra lives", so to speak (value carefully chosen to have other thresholds than energy return :P), but I myself prefer the idea of pushing your luck and seeing what you end up with. Pushing your luck is not the same as blindly trusting it, it is making calculated risks, and enforces spur-of-the-moment decisions, which adds excitement.

Burjis · Sep 01, 2010, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

in fact, Dervish is one of the best PvE classes of the game

I would agree with this statement when we're talking about general PvE. In elite areas, the Dervish is underutilized.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

An old idea for AohM I've already suggested a long time ago, don't know if it already appeared here in this thread:

Aura of Holy Might
10, 3/4, 25
Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes take 40...48...50 holy damage. For 20 and 2 seconds for each rank of Mysticism, you deal 20...30...32% more damage with your scythe. Every time an enchantment ends on you while this enchantment is active you deal 1...2...2 holy damage for each rank of Mysticism to all nearby foes. When this enchantment ends, all nearby foes take 40...48...50 holy damage.

As I pointed out in my post, I only have a problem with nerfing non-mysticism Dervish builds. In fact, I advocate "added functionality" for mysticism and your suggestion does just that. It doesn't reduce the effectiveness of AoHM for builds that don't use mysticism but improves it for those that do which is positive in my book.

Ideally I'd like the Dervish to be improved in a way that increases it's utilization in structured PvP as well as high end (elite) PvE areas.

reaper with no name · Sep 01, 2010, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burjis

This not only doesn't help the Dervish but it also nerfs it. Yeah it also nerfs the other melee professions using AoHM but the main point of a Dervish update is to improve this profession not nerf others. It might be good for Dervish builds that fully utilize mysticism but it also breaks all the other Dervish builds that don't rely too much on this attribute.
The same applies if they tie the effectiveness of the Scythe to Mysticism in any way (I'm not talking about "added" functionality).
Any build that relies on wind or earth or secondary profession attributes and holds a scythe would go directly into the trash can if they do anything like that and that means my favorite Dervish PvE Scythe builds will go with them.
And you should all remember: Dervish isn't just Mysticism.
Yeah improve Mysticism, I'd be happy. Add additional holy damage or increased attack speed to the scythe with more points in it, that would be awesome. Increase health gain bonus of this attribute, yeah that can do too. But make Scythes useless without 12 points in Mysticism you may as well remove Wind and Earth prayers from the game altogether. This will force Scythe users to put more and more points into mysticism, leaving no more points to be spent on other attributes that the Dervish might need.
I'd rather have no Dervish update than an update of this kind.

I don't understand. Are you guys concerned about the Dervish profession not being as good as it should or just jealous (sorry for using this term) of other professions being able to use the Scythe as effective as the Dervish?
And look at the solution: Nerf the hell out of all the other professions using a scythe and if it means nerfing the Dervish along with them, then so be it!

The only solution is to "improve" Dervish builds using Mysticism not "nerf" Dervish builds that don't.

By the same token, Elementalists are not just Energy Storage, Rangers are not just Expertise, and Mesmers are not just FC.

But when was the last time you saw a decent PvE build for these professions that didn't use their primary attribute? Why should the dervish be any different?

Primary attributes are one of the few things that differentiate classes from one another. Unless you are one of those rare exceptions that has something else going for it (like more minions via Death Magic runes), then the only way you are going to be the best at what you do is if your primary attribute makes you the best at it. The only way for the dervish to be the best with the scythe without making strength and critical strikes not work on the scythe is to make effective scythe usage contingent upon a mysticism investment.

Besides, it's obvious that the dervish was intended as a 3 attribute class, not a 2 attribute one. Scythe mastery was supposed to be the offense, mysticism the energy management and self-healing attribute, and then players would be allowed to use their remaining attribute points for wind prayers (utility) or earth prayers (defense and condition spreading). Honestly, it's not like you need 12 in earth or wind prayers for them to be effective. Most of those skills work just fine at 9 or 10. 12-9-9 splits say hi.